Faire ses pack batteries Li ion

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Re: Faire ses pack batteries Li ion

Messagepar glnc222 » Jeu 14 Avr 2016 16:48

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Re: Faire ses pack batteries Li ion

Messagepar AlexOntario » Jeu 12 Mai 2016 02:03

Bonjour,

Je vais aussi essayer de faire un pack.

Pouvez-vous me dire si je dois charger les cellules/accus avant de les assembler ou au contraire de les decharger completement avant ?

J'ose esperer que les pcb seraient capable de charger que les cellules qui ont en besoin :P .

Merci.
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Re: Faire ses pack batteries Li ion

Messagepar glnc222 » Jeu 12 Mai 2016 02:42

Botvac is different, a special case, different voltage http://www.robotreviews.com/chat/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=19149&hilit=lithium
It is not yet known how the AnewPow lithium for Botvac works.

For the XV the dual packs lithium cells should not be charged when assembling.
The Neato system measures the charge delivered when filling the batteries. Set menu option "New Battery".
Note special USB SetConfig BatteryType 3 for lithium etc. If this is not set the charger will go over-voltage and trip the protection board circuits.
Take great care to prevent any accidental short circuit when assembling wires on cells. Tape over parts exposed while working. Fire hazard with lithium cells.
Extreme caution soldering to these cells. Best have welded tabs.
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Re: Faire ses pack batteries Li ion

Messagepar glnc222 » Ven 13 Mai 2016 03:05

Cela dépend de la façon dont vous êtes le câblage des cellules. La spécification de 3 ampères peut être suffisant dans la plupart des cas. Le Neato charge à 2 ampères. Décharge peut dépasser 3 ampères. Si deux cartes étaient en parallèle, chacun avec des cellules différentes ils devraient travailler. Les seules cartes testées sont celles énumérées par Jean-Benoit ici. Batteries similaires ont été faites en Russie, avec d'autres cartes.

Est-ce que tu fais Botvac ou XV?
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Re: Faire ses pack batteries Li ion

Messagepar AlexOntario » Ven 13 Mai 2016 10:35

Ce sera pour un Neato XV 15. Les batteries arrivent en fin de vie, et il faut 4 chages pour nettoyer un niveau de la maison alors que lorsque les batteries etatient encores neuves, il fallait qu'une ou voire deux si la maison n'etait pas rangee.

Avez vous un lien ou une recommandation sur ebay ou aliexpress pour des pcb qui seraient susceptibles de convenir autre que ceux de J. Benoit ?
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Re: Faire ses pack batteries Li ion

Messagepar glnc222 » Ven 13 Mai 2016 16:33

Certains modules de protection sur ebay sont discutés dans les messages à robotreviews liés ci-dessous. Ce sont quatre cartes de cellules, en utilisant un our deux dans chaque pack. fils supplémentaires entre les packs peuvent être nécessaires. Lewiy membres en Russie aime un. Lewiy d'abord rapporté la commande USB SetConfig. Il y a des forums russes. Le programme de contrôle Neato est de la Russie.
http://www.robotreviews.com/chat/viewtopic.php?p=132090#p132090
http://www.robotreviews.com/chat/viewtopic.php?p=133709#p133709
http://www.robotreviews.com/chat/viewtopic.php?p=133711#p133711
e.g. http://www.ebay.com/itm/4S-Li-ion-Lithium-Battery-18650-Charger-Protection-Board-15A-14-4V-14-8V-16-8V/171719202816?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D33430%26meid%3Dd04f2dabe0fb48008d2950aa94c4565c%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26mehot%3Dfs%26sd%3D331630880247

Il peut être possible d'utiliser des circuits imprimés à quatre cellules, avec seulement deux cellules. Voir les PCB pour l'expérience LiFePo4 Botvac.
http://www.robotreviews.com/chat/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=19149&p=136597&hilit=botvac+lithium#p136597
Trouver des conseils similaires pour Lithium Ion au lieu de LiFePo4(tension différente).
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Re: Faire ses pack batteries Li ion

Messagepar AlexOntario » Mar 17 Mai 2016 01:06

Hi Glnc222,

Do you have an idea about the runtime for the 4S pack, built with 4 PANASONIC NCR18650B (3400 mAh) by another user ?

And what could be the schema ?

Thank you.
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Re: Faire ses pack batteries Li ion

Messagepar glnc222 » Mar 17 Mai 2016 17:00

You will be the first to try the four cell Panasonic 18650B, unless someone in Russia tried it. I do not read those forums. You can contact robotreviews.com member Lewiy there.
The original NiMh battery is 3200mah. Theoretically, the 3400mah Panasonic can perform the same. All four cells can be put into one compartment with a 4-cell pcb.
A 10K ohm resistor can be used for the thermistor in the empty compartment, or use the regular thermistor with no cells. The red and black wire in the empty compartment must be connected.
Or two pbs for 2-cells, one in each compartment. All four cells must be in a single series.
The original German lithium battery was four Samsung 2600mah cells with less than the standard run time.
Eight cells were used to obtain the full run time and to support the maximum drain rate.
Panasonic 18650B is reported to support high drain rate up to 10 amps in e-cigs.
The maximum run time is limited in software regardless how large is the battery.
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Re: Faire ses pack batteries Li ion

Messagepar AlexOntario » Mar 17 Mai 2016 19:09

Interesting Glnc222.

Ok, let's say I take the option 2 pcbs, 2s in each compartment.

I will have a 2s pcb with 2 PANASONIC 18650B in serie in each battery compartment correct ? In that configuration, how I know that the 2 compartments are connected in a whole serie ? Do I need to modify the existing conection wires ?

And also can you give me your opinions, feedback on the PANASONIC battery at this link, http://www.gearbest.com/batteries/pp_186582.html, do you think that they are true genuine (OEM) or fake/cpy ?

Thank you.
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Re: Faire ses pack batteries Li ion

Messagepar glnc222 » Mer 18 Mai 2016 08:23

I have no special knowledge of battery sales to evaluate whether the offering is fake. You could search the internet for information on fakes. Also ask the vendor if they are Panasonic. They look exactly like cells shown by dealers who specify Panasonic. The "NCR" label and also separate part no. shown, seems to be uniquely Panasonic part id.

Because of the fire hazard with lithium use only genuine major brand batteries made with expensive intense quality control. Always recommended for cell phones and computers. The cheaper ones are for flashlights where the risk is less important.
It is important the maximum drain rate supports the device load and protection against over-discharge is supplied. The NCR18650B seems to fit, but everything is an experiment.

Also note those cells do not have welded tabs for soldering. This is an optional service supplied by the better battery vendors, specialty shops. It is more difficult, even dangerous, to solder onto lithium ion instead of other type batteries, without special skills and equipment (i.e. very fast to keep it cool). The German guy did it but mentioned his engineering skills and professional soldering equipment (which costs more than a battery pack). Commercially it is always done by welding with all types. The German dealer mentioned by Jean-Benoit offers these services and probably has these cells -- a full line dealer. You can also find cells with tabs sometimes on ebay. There are many vendors on ebay, AliExpress, Amazon, separate store websites, etc. Try Google.
The commercial AnewPow, LIthiumPowerInc Neato lithium batteries are LiNMC chemistry safer. The cells used by Jean Benoit I think are the same. They may have lower capacity so eight are needed. There is a wide variety of cell types made for different uses.

The two Neato compartments are connected by a wire inside around the back of the case. The low voltage side red wire (positive terminal) connects inside to the black wire on the high voltage side. The two Neato packs are in series. The two packs are used just to arrange the space properly. Botvac has a different spatial arrangement allowing a single pack.

So you have two cells in series in each compartment, connected by a protection board, and wired to the Neato connector (a standard Molex part 03-06-2042, .062" pins), on the red and black wires. (These smaller pins are not available in stores and usually must be ordered from a distributor such as Digi-Key, though might be on ebay or Aliexpress). The two yellow wires are to a thermistor or 10K ohm resistor. The thermistors need to be obtained from a discarded NiMh battery because that particular one, which we know, is usually available only in large industrial lots. Thermistors all vary in their temperature curves, and the software is calibrated to use this particular one. Since under SetConfig BatteryType 3 lithium, thermistors are not used to regulate charging, they could be replaced by a 10K ohm resistor (the thermistors are 10K ohms at 25C and decline with increasing temperature; they might read 11K at room temperature.)

You just need protection boards with at least a 4 amp capacity or even more, for the peak drive motor loads found in Neato operation (wiring an ammeter to it while it runs). Often 2-cell boards have lower current specs because lower voltage than 4-series, so interesting Jean Benoit found some good ones. The better pcb's seem to be at the specialty battery dealers with their own websites. They appear in Google web searches.

I have not made these batteries but experimented with other kinds. I do not presently have a Neato, playing with a Powerbot instead.

Technical info in thread "Lithium Ion Revisited", robotreviews.com. Good luck with the project. Maybe discuss with Jean Benoit locally?

Apologies to all the francofones. Perhaps this question should have been posted to the english site.
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Re: Faire ses pack batteries Li ion

Messagepar AlexOntario » Mer 18 Mai 2016 13:34

Merci Glnc222 pour tous les apports d'informations que vous m'avez fournies.
Je vous tiendrai informer de mon projet.
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Re: Faire ses pack batteries Li ion

Messagepar glnc222 » Dim 22 Mai 2016 05:52

To be complete: the NiMh battery contains two devices for extreme conditions. One is a thermal fuse which opens at high temperatures. It seems to be made very high for when the battery is on fire. A second device is a type of fuse, called a Polyfuse or resettable fuse, which opens when the current drain is very high, as much as 10 amps. It closes when the current falls. This fuse appears to be short circuit protection only.
These devices salvaged from a discarded NiMh battery can be included in a DIY lithium battery, but are not required for the Neato to work.
However, I think they are included because the battery is removable and not a permanent part of the Neato. The protection is against misuse of the battery or connecting it to something wrong. This may be just a standard practice in commercially made battery packs. The polyfuse can be useful, and can also be replaced by an ordinary permanent fuse, though taking more space.
These two components are in addition to the thermistor temperature sensor mentioned previously. The thermistor or an equivalent ordinary resistor must be installed for the Neato to work. The computer reports the temperature over USB. When NiMh cells are used, the temperature controls the charger and must be accurate. Lithium cells do not heat up and the temperature measurement does not matter. There is an emergency cut off temperature around 60C, besides the control of the charger.
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Re: Faire ses pack batteries Li ion

Messagepar glnc222 » Sam 18 Juin 2016 05:59

One user found the lithium BatteryType 3 setting using USB SetConfig did not work on the older Rev113 Cruz XV-11 system board. The successful uses have been on newer Rev64 Binky boards (after eliminating the side plug for charging).
The battery type was properly registered but the charging algorithm did not change. Software version 3.2, Cruz version. Perhaps the Cruz version differs from the Binky same level.
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Re: Faire ses pack batteries Li ion

Messagepar danaite » Dim 7 Aoû 2016 04:53

Ça y est je me suis enfin lancé la réalisation des soudures à été facilité par de l'étain à âme décapante (1sec par point)
ImageImageImage

voila pour le BMS2S-7A-7-4V-li-ion-BMS

les cellules


et ce soir le test
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Re: Faire ses pack batteries Li ion

Messagepar Jean-benoit » Dim 7 Aoû 2016 19:09

Bonsoir

Bavo pour avoir sauter le pas.
Personnellement, je ne suis toujours pas déçu avec mes pack maison en cellules Panasonic que j'ai construit il y a prés de 1 an. Avec un robot qui tourne tous les jours 40 min !
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Re: Faire ses pack batteries Li ion

Messagepar danaite » Lun 8 Aoû 2016 07:31

merci encore de ton feedback à distance. et pour ton inspiration

j'ai fait tourner l'engin pendant 90min et les BMS ont coupé le jus
pas de problème néanmoins lors de monté en charge, mes cellules ont un "drain" suffisant

je vais donc poursuivre mon Re-calibrage et éventuellement repasser en ' ConfigID, 1 ' (je suis en 2)

à bientôt
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Re: Faire ses pack batteries Li ion

Messagepar PIOROL » Dim 2 Oct 2016 17:12

Bonjour,

impossible de changer la config batterie sur XV-25 en lithium ion, j'ai bien tapé la commande indiquée setconfigbattery 3, mais une
fenêtre s'ouvre m'indiquent un risque critique.. et même en validant quand-même aucun changement apparemment du
Neato...? toujours en config NIMH...?? si vous avez des infos sur commandes de neatocontrol..?? qui ne correspondent
apparemment pas tellement aux indications vues...??
merci d'avance
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Re: Faire ses pack batteries Li ion

Messagepar glnc222 » Dim 2 Oct 2016 17:29

SetConfig does not work on old Rev113 Cruz system boards. When used in old VR100 an extra board is present for lithium.
The new Rev64 Binky board has no side jack for charging.
The board ID can be seen on LCD and over USB connection.
AnewPow lithium replacements include thermistor control, simulates NiMh. This can sometimes be done with a balancer PCB which heats up, but hard to find now (improved balancers do not heat up enough). It has been done on Botvac.
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Re: Faire ses pack batteries Li ion

Messagepar Jean-benoit » Dim 2 Oct 2016 17:58

Bonsoir,
La carte mere de votre XV25 est bien une Binky REV 64. si oui, alors cela doit fonctionner.
Il faut bien taper la commande comme cela: "setconfig BatteryType 3" sinon, il y a risque de retour d'erreur.

JBD
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Re: Faire ses pack batteries Li ion

Messagepar glnc222 » Dim 2 Oct 2016 19:59

The BatteryType 3 setting for lithium can be tested with the NiMh battery for safety. Charging terminates short of full at 16.8v, compared to usual 18.5v for NiMh.
Then lithium battery can be charged once the software is correct.
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